Catholic-Picking

We have several Catholic characters - some of them not played by me! - a third of the army and a large percentage of the navy are Irish, most of them Catholic, and the army is marching through Portugal, so I thought it might be useful to have a place where any questions you might have concerning Catholicism can be answered, to be the best of my or any other volunteers' ability.

Wellesley was very sympathetic towards Catholics at the time, passing the Catholic Relief Act in 1829, when he was Prime Minister. While on campaign in the Peninsular, he made several orders regarding Catholicism:

- Catholic soldiers had the right to attend Mass (at this time of course, all Masses were in Latin - a Mass in Portugal was identical to one in England or Ireland). Wellesley was personally sceptical about the devoutness of most of the self-proclaimed Catholics.
- Soldiers were not allowed to enter a church during a service unless to participate. At all times in a church heads were to be uncovered and behaviour respectful.
- An order to all officers, when meeting a procession bearing the Host, to come to a halt and remove their helmets or hats while the procession passed. Soldiers were ordered to put their hand to their helmet in salute. When the procession passed the guard, the sentry was to call out the guard, which was to stand to attention and present arms. (Dispatches V, 134-5 & Supplementary Dispatches VI 91-2).

Catholic civilians would genuflect before the Host; that is, bend the right knee. They will also do this in the direction of the tabernacle (usually behind the altar) upon entering a church - a special candle is lit on one side of the sanctuary if the Host is in the tabernacle.

Also, terms like 'Papist' and 'Popery' are derogatory, but in common use at the time - a Catholic would not use them to refer to himself; Roman Catholic would be most appropriate. They would probably be the default phrase of use by most of the English characters though.

Hah, would it be too much to ask ^.^ for you to do the same for the other one as well?

I have some knowledge of the Church of England, more about its hierarchy than its doctrines and practices in the 19th century. Although many of the soldiers will have been nominally Anglican, there was only one chaplain per division, and religious observance was not high. Wellesley would have encouraged Anglicanism though (and possibly Catholicism) as a defence against the more 'dangerous' Methodism, which did away with hierarchy and had the men praying in groups led only by self-selected leaders. The first step of course to insubordination and mutiny.

There seems to have been no routine of Sunday prayers being held in the Army as they were on a ship. Even before a battle there were no communal prayers - possibly because the army was too evenly split between denominations

But I am not an expert - better to assume that Protestants are in the main an irreligious lot. If you have a question, though, connected with playing your characters, do ask - I'm sure among us we can find some answer.

Wellesley said he thought a lot of the Catholics were suddenly pious when it came to going to Mass, or crossing themselves and genuflecting to get wine out of the local population. Very sceptical of him.

Another thing to note is that officially Catholics were not allowed at this point to go to other denominations' services. If there was an order the enlisted men would probably have had no choice, but in the Aubreyad Stephen will always go into the rigging to watch birds during a service, then lead the Catholics in the rosary later; his only exception is for funerals - he does not attend weddings, even presumably, Jack's. I do not know if we have any other Catholic officers or civilians for this to be an issue though.

...better to assume that Protestants are in the main an irreligious lot...

Speaking as both Lossow and myself: *grins* we are, we are... post-religious, perhaps nowadays...

On the Terpsy, I wonder about Kinsella - he is Irish, with an Irish name, but that's no guarantee of Catholicism. The Friday thing seems to have come as a surprise to the Wardroom, but perhaps the middies cope better with it. Perhaps Kinsella stores up all his sins, including eating anything that's put before him, and confesses them on land. But there must/might be others.

Edrington has a private chapel at home, would regularly attend the parish church, probably has one or more parishes to which he can appoint parsons ... But would not dream of holding a Sunday service or leading the battalion in the singing of hymns, or any prayer more contentious than "God Save the King!" (I know that might be contentious, to some of you...) I suspect he is fairly typical, although we do hear of 'blue-light' Captains in the Navy, who are religious tyrants.

probably has one or more parishes to which he can appoint parsons

He could do that? When did that change? I don't think von Lossow('s father) had that right... 30years war and Augsburger Religionsfrieden keep running throught my head, but havet o check at soem point wehn I can actually think again...

Stephen Maturin wrote:Another thing to note is that officially Catholics were not allowed at this point to go to other denominations' services.

Whose rule was that? Was it a self-imposed rule among the Catholics? Or an army/navy rule? Or an Anglican rule, no Catholics allowed? I know Stephen didn't attend the services on board, but I thought it was just by his own choice, and he had the right to abstain from the otherwise compulsory services (along with the Jews and Muslims if there were any on board.)

It was not a self-imposed rule; it came from the Vatican. Stephen breaks it to attend funerals, but if he was obeying the letter of the law he would not have been allowed to attend Jack and Sophie's wedding.

von Lossow wrote:

probably has one or more parishes to which he can appoint parsons

He could do that? When did that change? I don't think von Lossow('s father) had that right... 30years war and Augsburger Religionsfrieden keep running throught my head, but havet o check at soem point wehn I can actually think again...

Of course, I made it up about Edrington, but it's a common theme in books about the period - including I think the Aubreyad, and Georgette Heyer, and even Jane Austen, where Lady de Burgh has the Rev Mr Collins' appointment in her gift. The right to present a suitable candidate to the bishop for appointment (to be refused only if unsuitable) is attached to the 'manor', and can be inherited, sold etc. It seems to have survived the Benefices Act of 1898 unchanged. In 1986 a regulation saying the attached right (advowson) should no longer be recorded in the Land Registry does make me wonder if it still existed then. Or that was its final death.

I cannot imagine Stephen staying away from Jack and Sophie's wedding, Vatican rules notwithstanding.

And I hadn't noticed until someone pointed it out - in M&C, he stops saying the Our Father (it looks as though he's saying it in English rather than Latin, strangely) before 'and Thine is the Kingdom, the power and glory, forever and ever, Amen'. Which I hadn't realised Catholics don't say.

Me neither - which is why I said 'officially'.

I LOVE that moment in the film - it's possibly my favourite. It just shows the research the actors and the film-makers did.

There are so many wonderful moments in that film, I need to watch it all over again. And I can now I've replaced the old disc that was starting to literally fall to pieces every time I put it back in the case - it was some really bad batch or something, with one of the layers flaking off every time I pressed it back down into the case. I've never seen anything like it!

before 'and Thine is the Kingdom, the power and glory, forever and ever, Amen'. Which I hadn't realised Catholics don't say.

I thought the Catholics do say that. *rubs temples*

These things, rather confusing, even more so.. with them being slight different so long ago too! x.x.

Nope, Catholics omit that last line. (Trust me, I know from experience; I'm one myself.)

And I never actually noticed that Stephen stops saying it in the movie. Guess I have an excuse to go watch it again now.

We omit it in daily, informal prayer, but when we say it during Mass, the priest does his own little patter, and then we say it.