Ranks and whatnot

This probably should go in the Nautical and/or Army boards, but I couldn't decide which soo....

I've got a copy of 'The Sailor's Word-Book', first published in 1867. It has words going back to the times of Columbus and earlier. Really interesting. But anyway. I was flipping through today and found under the 'RANK' entry a list of Army and Navy ranks, and what they are equal too. And one of the entries confused me...

1. Admirals of the Fleet --- rank with --- Field-marshals
2. Admirals --- rank with --- Generals
3. Vice-Admirals --- rank with --- Lieutenant-Generals
4. Rear-Admirals --- rank with --- Major-Generals
5. Captains of the Fleet (Flag-Captains?) and Commodores --- rank with --- Brigadier-Generals
6. Captains of 3 years --- rank with --- Colonels
7. Captains under 3 years --- rank with --- Lieutenant-Colonels
8. Commanders --- next to --- Do. (indented beneath the Lt.-Col.)
9. Lieutenants, 8 years --- rank with --- Majors
10. Lieutenants under 8 years --- rank with --- Captains
11. Sub-lieutenants --- rank with --- Lieutenants
12. Midshipman --- rank with --- Ensigns

Number 11 (and possibly 9 and 10 as well) is not of any use to us, I believe. I think sub-lieutenants were created later on in the 19th century, to do with steam-ships and the like. Which would make, for us, new lieutenants equal to army lieutenants, and more senior ones with Captains/Majors (maybe).

Does anyone know anything more? Or possibly have an explanation for the whole 'Commander' thing? 'Cause it is, obviously, the one most important to me.

-P^earlsie

Commander = Master and Commander. Addressed as Captain (by courtesy as they command their own ship).

Lots of commanders never had their promotion confirmed in 1802 because of the Peace of Amiens and the cutbacks that entailed, so ended up as plain old Lieutenant again (witness Hornblower).

It was possible to be promoted from Lieutenant to (post) Captain, especially if in favour and in the right place at the right time.

I can't remember the rate of ship they would command but I think it was sixth- or fifth rate, as anything larger would be commanded by a full (i.e. post) captain.

Once you were 'posted' (made post captain) you just had to survive in order to eventually get promoted to Admiral.

The ranks seem to have changed in meaning in 1827 - ie, between our time and the book. Confusingly 'Commander' became the rank given to (or held by) the First Lieutenant of a battleship, second-in-command to the Captain, rather than the man in command of a medium sized vessel. (The smallest ships were commanded by mere lieutenants.) These 'Masters and Commanders' reverted, as it were, to being known as Lieutenants, which apparently did not please them at all. To soothe this, the rank of Lieutenant Commander was given to lieutenants with 8 years seniority. It seems as if this was now a proper rank, rather than a job description, but earned by seniority rather than promotion on merit. Presumably a lieutenant commander might find himself 3rd in command of a battleship.

I suspect that because this inserted another rank (or two) into the chain, the equivalences with the Army had to be squashed up. Where in our 1809 there were junior Lieutenants (equivalent to Army Captains) and more senior Lieutenants serving as Master and Commander (equivalent to Major), with new post-Captains equivalent to Lieutenant Colonel, they had to fit Commander/Lieut-Commander in. It would have to be staggered though, so that a Commander did not equal a Naval Captain.

Yes, wasn't it so with Bush, for a favor from Hornblower he was made from lieutenant to post-Captain to command the big old Nonsuch?
In Commodore Hornblower that is. I don't know the "rank" of the ship, I haven't found the book in English yet.

Mmm... yes, thanks Edrington. ^^ Solves my issue.

And yeah, I knew all of that about commanders. They would command sloops, sixth-rates, and possibly fifth-rates. I can't remember either. ^^ Interestingly enough, those little boats called 'bombs' were commanded by Lieutenants. So were fireships, I think. Insofar as that is a command.

Its been nearly a year since I read 'Commodore Hornblower' but I think it was fourth? maybe third? I'm probably making this up...

As a bit of a related aside, the ranks of Navy officers in comparison to Marine officers measure up a little unevenly. That is to say, a Marine captain is equal in rank to a Navy first lieutenant. Interestingly, though, a Marine captain also held a brevet commission in the Army for one rank higher than his Marine commission stated. That means, a Marine captain is also a major in the Army.

Figured I'd throw that out there.

That's really neat!! I didn't know that about the Army equivalency. ^^